Jump to content

Photo

Tech Talk


  • Please log in to reply
68 replies to this topic

#1
Twister

Twister

    OWNER of EMF Rod Ends

  • Root Admin
  • 7,371 posts
  • Joined 03-August 06
  • Gender:Male

Well with the announcing of the 2015 tech rules there was many questions and disgruntled hopeful competitors. Ben Spinny of Mountain Mafia chose to use the 2014 rules because of the complaints and figured it would be best to avoid issues and not chance having people not enter. I figure we should talk a little and hear why people are against some rules and also explain why we thought that maybe some things needed to be addressed. I hope Cheston Beck, Leroy as well as Cody Ford and anyone else that has an opinion can chime in. This will also hopefully cover guys building new chassis etc...

 

 1st  is Drive line hoops.

 

Is everyone against them at the axle because it's not dangerous for the occupants of the rig? What I saw was people saying at the t-case was acceptable because it prevents it from coming through the floor. I understand these are not monster trucks and way under powered however the crowd is so close without safety fences on parts of the course and officials  are right by the trucks many times through out the course. As are photographers and film crew  I think maybe people miss understood what we were worried about. The drive shaft hoops are to protect the judges, the spotter and the crowd or spectators. The lower hoop is to catch the bottom part of the shaft if it comes in contact with a rock and shears off. At an idle not such a big deal but if someone is under throttle and the thing pops off it can become a projectile out the side of the vehicle. Who cares right. Well at mountain Havoc there are many spots where judges and the crowd are right beside the course. Sure no one has been injured yet but the point is to prevent it from ever happening. As of the weekend this rule was removed. However if you plan on competing maybe think about adding one. They're easy to make and install and it will insure that you never have to face a grieving parent, wife, husband etc... of someone that you accidentally killed. Again it's up to you because it's no longer a required rule. 

 

 

 



#2
Cody Ford

Cody Ford
  • Members
  • 1,001 posts
  • Joined 05-September 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Calgary/coutts
  • Interests:90' C350 AKA 4 door 1 ton bronco
    96' Ranger: kings, EMF parts, 800hp SBF

Collateral damage from busted drive shafts is always a concern to.  From wadding up electrical/fuel/brake lines, to the drive shaft jamming into the ground and breaking drive train parts or just the flopping around and taking out your input/output shafts.  The other concern in an event such as havoc is with extraction, pending on how one is having to be pulled out (short of being lifted up and out), drive shafts sometimes have to be removed to avoid catching on terrain (I've had to do his a few times).  I've always ran loops in all of my race rigs, and while yes they can be a challenge to be built to withstand dragging over rocks, if you can build a full hydro ram mount on the front of a diff to hold up, the same can be done for a loop, and if done right you now have a skid plate for the pinion as well.


90' C350 AKA 4 door 1 ton Bronco
96' Ranger: kings, EMF parts, 800hp SBF

#3
ChestonScout

ChestonScout

    HAVOCS original BADASS

  • Members
  • 735 posts
  • Joined 01-December 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Clinton, utah
I dont want driveline hoops on my rig for a few reasons

I 100% understand if built correctly they are a good safety item. And for high speed sports are a necessity.

I wheel in the rocks. Thats all i do. In order to build a hoop on a axletech its going to require some sort of dredger scoop like Ben Spinney built to protect his pinion brake rotor. I think its counter productive to install rock anchors on a rock rig.

The rule was what 3/16" thick hoop? Build it out of that and its destroyed the first rock it touches. And like Cody said, collateral damage could result. My wadded up hoop could destroy my driveline

Your video of the kid dieing at monster jam is super sad. My boy is 6. Were going to Monster Jam this weekend. I couldnt imagine losing him.
BUT for arguement sakes here its irrelevant.

Monster trucks are required to have driveline hoops. Shit still happens. And like you said, these arent monster trucks. But You were smart to require the pinion brake protection. Anyone that wheels rocks already has it im sure. Mud guys probably not

I know the crowd is close at MT Havoc. Too close in some spots. The start of the rock course had me very nervous all day. And people had to scatter when the jeep rolled in order to not be smashed. Being up close is awesome....and super dangerous. Maybe the crowd needs pushed back??? Its judges and photographers responsibilty to keep themselves at a safe distance and still do their job.

Having said that, anywhere last year where any speed was involved, the crowd wasnt close. Which is nice for safety.

I said hoops at the t case were acceptable because most people could build them pretty easily and not hinder the rigs performance.

I really really hope and pray we have another safe event.


Im in NO way bashing on the event or any of the staff. Im glad you have everyones safety in mind. You just have to remember, these are not competition only rigs. They are our trail rigs that may compete once or year or so. If you ask us to build race specific rigs.....we will just go wheelin instead. No biggie
Ignorance makes me immortal

#4
Twister

Twister

    OWNER of EMF Rod Ends

  • Root Admin
  • 7,371 posts
  • Joined 03-August 06
  • Gender:Male
Your video of the kid dieing at monster jam is super sad. My boy is 6. Were going to Monster Jam this weekend. I couldnt imagine losing him.
BUT for arguement sakes here its irrelevant

 

 

It's relevant anywhere. If the shaft is damaged and you hit the gas to go over an obstacle and it lets go it can whip and pull apart from the upper section and be hurled.  

Like I said if you're comfortable with the consequence it's all good. 

 

pinion gaurd.jpg

 

Mine were bigger guards because of the rotor but as far as rocks it's never hampered me. I know you're a rock guy and I have seen few in my day but when I did nothing really stopped me.



#5
Twister

Twister

    OWNER of EMF Rod Ends

  • Root Admin
  • 7,371 posts
  • Joined 03-August 06
  • Gender:Male

for the record I have thrown a drive shaft. With my 3 tons.



#6
Twister

Twister

    OWNER of EMF Rod Ends

  • Root Admin
  • 7,371 posts
  • Joined 03-August 06
  • Gender:Male
But You were smart to require the pinion brake protection. Anyone that wheels rocks already has it im sure. Mud guys probably not

 

 

Leroy didn't when we were at TTC 2012 and we broke a rotor in the rock course.



#7
skipped_link

skipped_link
  • Members
  • 347 posts
  • Joined 06-August 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Golconda NV

I will first point out that my views will not be agreed with by most who are passionate about safety, but these views are what I believe, 

 

A person has very limited control on their destiny, even tho a road is not necessarily laid out before you, any control you have of the direction you go is comparable to driving a worn out late 70s Chevy with a bagged steering box & unbalanced 38" swampers, Herding your destiny is the best you can ask for.

 

For a piece of that truck to fly 30-40 into a crowd & hit him in the head, makes me wonder what if he had not been at a monster truck show? would he have died in a car accident? hit by a car crossing the street?  It does make me wonder.   

 

You cannot put controls in place that grantee anyone's safety,  those controls only help keep people safe, 

 

Now enough of what I believe, And look at facts a little

 

 

27 seconds into this video shows the piece that this the boy ultimately causing his untimely death,

 

 

That looks like a piece of the drive line cage to me, possibly rotor guard, 

 

On my 49 I ran drive line cages, similar to a monster truck, it the mud these were no problem, & only slightly a pain to work around,

But like Cheston said, in the rocks it is going to require a significant piece of equipment to survive a 6000 lb plus rig bearing down in it over the rocks,

 

My Axletechs have minimal competition time on them, & already the 1/8" dimple died box plates on the bottom are damaged to the point they will need replaced before installing my new links & joints, & I'm talking about a piece of plate that is 2.5" wide, 4" long & fully welded on 3 sides, with the angle of approach being advantages to survival in that application,

 

A skid is going to need to be pretty dang stout, & I doubt a hoop could be build to survive without a skid to protect it,

 

My concern is if D-line hoops are required,  If damaged they could in turn cause damage to the drive line,  (gouge/stress riser) so they would need to be inspected & repaired after every event that may have caused damage, & if the have gotten into the shaft it may be hard to see, if easy to see the shaft may need replaced too,  



#8
skipped_link

skipped_link
  • Members
  • 347 posts
  • Joined 06-August 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Golconda NV

 

Leroy didn't when we were at TTC 2012 and we broke a rotor in the rock course.

 

In all fairness, in the 300 + hours those diffs were in the machine, rotor damage was minimal, And with that said, there are many reasons I run wheel brakes, that is one of them.



#9
ChestonScout

ChestonScout

    HAVOCS original BADASS

  • Members
  • 735 posts
  • Joined 01-December 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Clinton, utah

My point with the monster truck was it had d line hoops but parts still skattered. From the looks of leroys video the parts were there for safety measures and failed


There is no possible way to make enough rules and tech to wipe out all risks and dangers from this or any sport. We as drivers HAVE to know the risks. Crowds may be more naive but should be told of the dangers when standing 5' from a competing rig.
Ignorance makes me immortal

#10
Twister

Twister

    OWNER of EMF Rod Ends

  • Root Admin
  • 7,371 posts
  • Joined 03-August 06
  • Gender:Male
Crowds may be more naive but should be told of the dangers when standing 5' from a competing rig.

 

 

The problem is crowds think they're safe. Trust me everyone is all friendly and responsible for their actions until something happens.Then you're the devil. The monster truck isn't the best example but the crowd is at least 100 feet away. Personally  don't agree with a crowd on the side of a course because of flying debris. Hardgrass we had to worry about pit run hitting people. I've always run hoops and never had issues. Once in a while they get tweaked and rub the shaft. You bend them back and I've never seen one lathe a tube. Have you ever run one on your scout?

 

On my 49 I ran drive line cages, similar to a monster truck,

 

 

yeah the full cage wouldn't work. That I could see getting bent up and causing problems.
 

 

In all fairness, in the 300 + hours those diffs were in the machine, rotor damage was minimal,

 

 

I know but I do remember asking you about it and you said you'd never had a problem. Then I took a chunk out of it.



#11
ChestonScout

ChestonScout

    HAVOCS original BADASS

  • Members
  • 735 posts
  • Joined 01-December 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Clinton, utah
I have not run d line hoops on the scout. Never felt the need. I have blown my fair share of drivelines to.

In fact, i once blew a rear output on my t case making the rear driveline flop around. I drove about 1.5 miles on a pretty intense course this way and the only damage was a couple banged up coolant tubes. Not everyone will be that lucky i know.


Having said that, When i rebuilt the cage and subframe on the Scout last winter, i did incorporate driveline hoops at the t case in the new tubework.
Ignorance makes me immortal

#12
Twister

Twister

    OWNER of EMF Rod Ends

  • Root Admin
  • 7,371 posts
  • Joined 03-August 06
  • Gender:Male

  What about the pinion brake guard? Do you think guys should run them?  I mean if the rotor is hit hard enough to knock  the rotor off then you have no brakes. If it happens and you're on the throttle then anyone outside the rig is in danger because the driver can't stop. This happened at Havoc last year. He drove it with difficulties to the end.  Myself and others saw and let him go. After I thought about it and I should have stopped him. But I want everyone to get to the end. Like when rob dropped his shaft and kept going and it was banging around. I should have stopped him. But I didn't I let him go because who wants to stop? I wanted to see how far he could go. Nothing happened but if he got rowdy and didn't give a shit, that shaft could become a missile.  Basically I'm done with events and won't be attending anymore. So what I say and my thoughts don't really mean anything. However they are the views of a past competitor, a past promoter , a past course designer , a past spectator and judge not to mention someone that spent years trying to meet tech and always bitching and wondering why we had to meet all of the rules (I'm talking about me not you).  Every concern I raise is based on a past experience. None of it is pulled from my ass.  Remember HGH 2014. When everyone showed up and said the course was too hard and dangerous? Everyone  decided they new better and ruined the course right? Everything looked hard but was a lot easier. Again when I raise concerns they are valid. I think the cage rule was a bit over the top and because of the difficulty to retro fit some of the upgrades it would have been slighty altered. However in two years time it will be a valid point. So introducing it today will give guys building now a chance to be safe by implementing it into their builds now. Not that the cages today are unsafe but they will fold the brow bars down. The guys will walk away but then their day is done. Who wants that when you can just right the rig and go?

 

 

All I can say to arguments against sensible safety changes is Dale Ernhardt fast simple karma. Same with the sheeted roof rule. I don't know anyone that competed at hgh 2014 that complains about that rule now.



#13
skipped_link

skipped_link
  • Members
  • 347 posts
  • Joined 06-August 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Golconda NV
I don't think there's anything wrong with requiring a pinion brake guard, having run pinion brakes without, I know troubles of broken rotors. The last version of tech rules I read the pinion brake rule was reasonable, a guard protecting X amount of rotor is required, unless the rotor is on the same input as the steering & the cylinder offers protection,
Seems reasonable to me.

Only argument I have with the last post is "everyone complained about how hard the course was"
About the only thing I bitch about is standing water, and that's only cause a guy has to have something to bitch about, it just as well be something petty. Anything out side of that I only make suggestions & try to keep those to a minimum.


I personally do not see these types of events getting much farther out of hand. There will always be the hand full of kamikaze drivers, but they'll likely be in 500-700 hp rigs that weigh 5000-7000 lbs, and the closest they'll get to monster truck destruction is early 90s car crushes,
By the time they can afford full on Dennis Anderson ass monkey driving, they will move on to U4 or real monster trucks,
The rest of us that stay in this field will be limited to driving smart, or being ok with our rig being down til repairs can be afforded.

My point there is come up with (or leave) a rule set that fits the rigs competing now, and deal with growth of it happens, not in anticipation.

#14
Twister

Twister

    OWNER of EMF Rod Ends

  • Root Admin
  • 7,371 posts
  • Joined 03-August 06
  • Gender:Male

how can you tell when as an organization you've fucked up big time?   When you see this posted by Cheston Beck  within two days of posting tech  rules without any discussion as to why the rules were being implemented.

Quick action and good decisions made by the Mountain Havoc crew! Thank you!!

 

 

My point there is come up with (or leave) a rule set that fits the rigs competing now, and deal with growth of it happens, not in anticipation.

 

 

Havoc Tech did that today.  It's a pretty awesome rule set. I've never been happier with a plan. It's completely fair allowing "not" so competitive rigs to run as well as ensure the big guys don't kill anyone or themselves. It's simple and straight forward. 



#15
skipped_link

skipped_link
  • Members
  • 347 posts
  • Joined 06-August 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Golconda NV

Havoc Tech did that today.  It's a pretty awesome rule set. I've never been happier with a plan. It's completely fair allowing "not" so competitive rigs to run as well as ensure the big guys don't kill anyone or themselves. It's simple and straight forward.

Was there something posted again today? I received a copy of tech rules via email from Cody the other day, has mountain mafia adopted this new rules set instead of reverting back to 2014/15 rules?

I took Chestons post as a compliment to a timely decision, something that organization is not really know for, I'm not sure how that post is an indicator that anyone has fucked up?

Or are you just pointing out a decision was made with little to no discussion at all?

#16
Twister

Twister

    OWNER of EMF Rod Ends

  • Root Admin
  • 7,371 posts
  • Joined 03-August 06
  • Gender:Male

First no the rules are not released. No they haven't been agreed upon but a system has been come up with. Hopefully it will be passed. It's based on what you guys explained to us and it's more than fair.

 

Yeah there was no discussion. No time to think. One thing competitors have to realize is nothing good happens over night. Rather than climbing down someones throat instantly and demanding change give it a little time. You did well you voiced concerns and allowed response time. Others however did not act as yourself.and to be clear "Climbing  down someones throat"  To me is Any time someone says well i'm out because of something new being introduced, without taking to time to fully understand whats going on or even talk about it. Any threat of not showing, not entering or any other type of "do what I say or I'm not playing"  Obviously the event needs drivers and rigs. It was said and used. Go back and read it I'm not sure who I don't remember. However talk like that creates unneeded fear which results in quick decisions that aren't reversible. 

 

Having said what I just said understand that people get defensive over things that are directed towards them. Being opinions feelings or just something said. The drivers are that way  when rules are announced, courses are walked or tech is involved. Everyone has an opinion.  On the event side organizers feel the same way when the drivers are talking to them. Calm  and working together that's the best way

 

As well just to clarify

 

To me is Any time someone says well i'm out because of something new being introduced, without taking to time to fully understand whats going on or even talk about it. Any threat of not showing, not entering or any other type of "do what I say or I'm not playing"

 

 

 

 I have said this several times in the duration of Havoc. I don't care for all the complaining and arguing. No one stepped up to the plate and stuck their necks out to do this originally. There is now the Mafia crew and Leroy and company.  I've spent more than I've made and wasted several years on this instead of my family and myself. I really do want out. I don't need to argue with the drivers and the organization. It's brutal being in the middle. It sucks when the organization treats you like your a driver and the drivers treat you like the organization. I would just really like to get this thing nailed down before I leave so that it has a long future. As soon as that happens I'm out. I just think everyone involved in events on both sides need to understand where the other is coming from.  Also some competitors thinks organizations have it out for them. Having been that guy and now on the other side of the fence. If this was true Cheston would have a massive bulls eye on his back. Truthfully no one cares. He's fun to watch and he's a nice guy. But a huge pain in the ass when you're just trying to have an event. 

 

Once again My thoughts not Havocs.



#17
ChestonScout

ChestonScout

    HAVOCS original BADASS

  • Members
  • 735 posts
  • Joined 01-December 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Clinton, utah
I am 110% fine being the pain in the ass.

I will say i have never complained about anything on my own. Im just the only one not scared of big bad Clay and flap my yap about the things people dont agree with or concerns. My tactic is probably usually bad but it does get the point across.



You cant blame half the list of competitors to say they are out IF the new rules are implemented. I said that along with others. Its not meant to be a do what i say or else threat. Its simply saying my rig doesnt comply and i dont want to rebuild it again so i no longer qualify. No biggie.


Tech rules should be there to make sure everyone is safe. You posted yourself our cages are safe. We will walk away. Thats all that matters and should be all thats required. If cages are damaged in a roll we know we will have to be done. It sucks but thats life. Requiring everyone to build Warthogs in order to compete just isnt practical.

This thread is getting entirely off track. Probably my fault to



Personally after running pinion brakes i will never run them again. There is nothing safe about them. What if guys break a half ton shaft?? Several were broke last year. Now that tire doesnt have brakes. Half as bad as losing a rotor right? The pinion gaurd is a no brainer. My rear was protected by my steering ram and mount. I built tube protection for the front. Never had an issue with rotors. Leroy is the exception. I do remember asking him several times if he was ever gonna build protection for them. But just because i feel they are unsafe doesnt mean i would outlaw them all together. Implement a reasonable rule. The skid is reasonable. A fully captured rotor cage is not so reasonable



Cody had posted a timeline on the discussion thread. It was more than reasonable. Left time for more comments and more open discussion. Minutes later Ben posted reverting back to last years rules. Being a driver looking in, that says to me the havoc team made a decision. Hell ya im gonna say thank you. Just the same thank you as i would have said next monday when Cody said the decision would be announced. Make a decision and live with the consequences. Pick rules and stick with them. If that makes it so Cheston cant compete....probably better off anyway. Dood is a pain in the ass!
Ignorance makes me immortal

#18
Twister

Twister

    OWNER of EMF Rod Ends

  • Root Admin
  • 7,371 posts
  • Joined 03-August 06
  • Gender:Male
Personally after running pinion brakes i will never run them again. There is nothing safe about them. What if guys break a half ton shaft?? Several were broke last year. Now that tire doesnt have brakes. Half as bad as losing a rotor right?

 

 

True if you're running a locker or open. Not if it's welded or a spool. When I competed at koh pinion brakes weren't allowed for that reason. And the fact they don't stop well at high speeds. I was welded and the planetaries in a braking test stopped me no problem.

 

I will say i have never complained about anything on my own. Im just the only one not scared of big bad Clay and flap my yap about the things people dont agree with or concerns. My tactic is probably usually bad but it does get the point across.

 

 

 

It's in my nature to push people. To make things bigger badder faster. It's who I am. I have pushed myself to certain limits and experienced failures . Where other people assume the out come I know what it is. I guess that's why we don't see eye to eye.



#19
Twister

Twister

    OWNER of EMF Rod Ends

  • Root Admin
  • 7,371 posts
  • Joined 03-August 06
  • Gender:Male

and Cheston Big bad Clay knows certain things about certain rigs and turns a blind eye and bites his tongue turns the other way and says nothing so that those rigs can compete. However they can kill someone. Fine the people have accepted that. My goal is to not have a new person to the sport see that rig and make the same mistake be following how that rig is built. Unfortunately I can't and won't out these people because I don't want to create problems with them and they're rigs are irreversible so I'll bite my tongue because I want to watch them compete. What I don't want is for new people  to build a rig and compare it to said rig and say it worked for so and so. I would like the next generation to build their rigs with a guide line to prevent what we're going through right now.  Your noble for standing up for the current guys concerns but you're arguing for what benefits you right now. I'm shooting for 5 years down the road. At which time this argument will be redundant.



#20
ChestonScout

ChestonScout

    HAVOCS original BADASS

  • Members
  • 735 posts
  • Joined 01-December 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Clinton, utah
That statement is kind of part of my point. Whats the purpose of adding piles of new rules if the old rules arent enforced?

If there is something unsafe on my rig i sure as hell hope someone points it out to me. I am obviously no where near being pro but i feel safe in what i built. If i didnt, i couldnt load my family up and go wheelin. And i would every weekend if money allowed

Have you pointed out the issues on these said rigs? There is nothing wrong with saying ill let you slide this year but dont come back next year unless this issue is resolved.

TTC was horrible at this. There tech wasnt to hard to be legal for. We did long tech inspections every year. I pointed out lots of issues with judges and they were always just let by. whats the point of inspections then?

I understand people will always try to bring junk. Chances are their buddies told them dont worry, my junk slid right by last year. Reasonable tech rules enforced has to be safer than impossible rules that arent enforced
Ignorance makes me immortal




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users